The War in Iraq

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The War in Iraq

Post  Flower Mound on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:39 pm

So here is a touchy subject, but this is among friends so we can discuss it as gentlemen.

Deap throat and I have discussed this on occassion. So I hear a lot of arguements for the war quite frequently. And the battle cry most conservatives use is that we are bringing "freedom" to a country in termoil. Now this opens up a lot of discussions so hopefully I can stay on track. I know the cry for freedom is what we hear on the news now, that they "need" us there.

So here is my beef.

1.) Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember, didn't we invade iraq because we thought they had nucleur weapons? I don't recall our original intentions being to liberate a country. From my observations it seems that we changed our "mission" somewhere along the way. And if the people of iraq really needed liberation then why haven't they rose up and taken thier nation back. We took out the dictatorship and the government under him, so in theory, if that's what they needed, and then they shouldn't need us now.

2.) Continueing from my previous statement, is it our right as people to go in and force our will on another people? Is it really inhumane they way their culture is? Or is it simply we don't understand it? In the old testiment people were stoned for wrong doing right? Justice was very different then. Was that inhumane? Now it is, but not back then, just because it was a different culture right?

3.) And my biggest issue, regardless of if its right to be there or not, is the idea of fighting for peace. If we are really so concerned with everyone else in the world then why don't we do something that will help the world. If we really wanted peace and love for the world then we would be trying to spread peace and love, not invading countries. For starters, we could take the billions of dollars we are pumping into iraq and feed african children. Invest in cleaner fuel systems. We could invest money into third world countries to boost thier economy. Send poor people to college. Spread medical aid in third world countries. Would there still be bad shit happening in iraq, maybe, and probably would happen in different places throughout the world. But I think all the money we put into a war to help people A, could be used wiser and we could help people B,C,D,E, and F. Some people still get screwed, but we help more people in the end.

I hope no one got discouraged by the length, hope someone read this. Please correct me if I am wrong on my facts. And if you disagree, please discuss, I'm always looking for a better point of view, maybe someone else see's something i don't.
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Sugarcane on Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:58 am

Wow flower mound I'm impressed. You nailed it. I agree with your view 200%. I also understand why we are still there. 1. Oil- we are there for oil, to get our hands on as much as we can. Conservatives still don't see the reason in investing into better energy sources because they make their money in oil. Why switch its making them rich. Oh and also there are some democrats that make there money there too, so this is not a total bashing of the right.
2. A presidentís pride is on the line. We spent billions to get there and start this war on a speculation of weapons of mass destruction. We get there and win but no weapons. So bush looks like a moron so he switches the mission, Operation Iraqi freedom.
3. Some evil bastard somewhere is making money off this war. During war someone is making money. Rather it is a bunch of right wing business men that own factories that produce weapons, or a drug company that makes medicine for the troops and the Iraqi people. Some body is making money. Itís sick and wrong.

The simply truth is more money is made in war then actually caring for people and helping them in peace. All that money in war is backed by an investment, or was. Now people are questioning it. If we just simply give health care to people and send people to college that money is just being spent with little or no return. It really just comes down to economics.
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Potty Patty on Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:40 pm

The War

For now, this is all I will say about the war.
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Deep Throat Daisy on Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:53 am

I really am doing my best to look at both sides of this thing. I mentioned this on Facebook, but they are now saying that we're up to 4,000 American casualties in Iraq since the beginning of this war, whereas, in Afghanistan has a mere 500 or so. Let's not forget that 3,000 innocent people died on 9/11. So far, we've lost more Americans in the revenge for 9/11 than 9/11 itself. Of course, this is expected, I guess. We still don't have Osama bin Laden. I still wonder if 9/11 never happened, would we have still found a way to go over to Iraq? Who knows. It's very discerning. Especially when even the Vice President says that our original reason to go over there (weapons of mass destruction) was flawed and was faulty information (see interview). I'm not saying that we've done some good over there, because I believe we have. Obviously ridding a country of a tyrant is a good thing, but remember that (I believe) we didn't get involved in World War II until we were attacked first. We, as America, should never jump into a pre-emptive war.

Then again..

This is especially different, because we've never declared war on a group of individuals that are basically bastards of their own countries. Even though I'm very much against the War in Iraq, I don't find it very easy to be 100% against it. There is still a small voice in the back of my head that says we're doing the right thing, just going about it the wrong way. In total, over this whole shitstorm, including 9/11, we've lost close to 8,000 American boys & girls. We know good and well that this world is fucked up and we're doing our best to be the voice of reason. I'm just curious as to when something like this can officially end, given someone doesn't just downright end it. Evil can never be completely destroyed, except until God intervines. I sometimes worry that if it wasn't this war that we're fighting, it would be another one.

elephant scratch
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Flower Mound on Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:35 am

all good stuff boys, its a tough subject. right off the bat its hard to judge something that you aren't there for, we are talking about the actions of our country on the other side of the planet. But at the same time, we have convictions about the subject and we can't ignore that.

more then i would like to admit it, i think daniel is right, oil and money drives way to much these days, there's termoil in africa, but they don't have huge oil supplies so thier people aren't worth trying to save. right? thats so fucked up

and if there is more good going on then we know, or more reasons that we don't know, then dave you nailed it on the head, i think we are going about it the wrong way. And then that takes us back to the idea of trying to gain peace with fighting. This is good stuff guys, i thinking doubting are political systems is healthy, thats how we keep ourselves and them in check.
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Sugarcane on Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:15 pm

I try not to blame it all on oil and money, but when it comes down to who we should invade, it sure pays to invade someone with something we need. I think for the political morons that run this country it was just the icing on the cake.
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Check this out

Post  Deep Throat Daisy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:09 pm

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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Sugarcane on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:53 am

Hell yeah. I feel sorry for them. I couldn't imagine being pulled away from my family for 15 months to fight in a shitty war I don't believe in. God bless em
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Deep Throat Daisy on Tue May 06, 2008 12:54 am

I highly suggest you all watch the documentary "No End In Sight". I watched it the other night and was appalled at what I saw. It shows the major errors of the occupation of Iraq, straight from the government officials who were involved. At the same time, it is terrifying because it shows how horrible things in Iraq are and how, realistically, there is no end in sight.
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Re: The War in Iraq

Post  Potty Patty on Tue May 06, 2008 2:59 am

Alright, here's a few things I feel like saying about this, as I've stayed quiet for most of it.

First off, I do think that we need to get out of Iraq as our current situation is not what was intended and is definitely not doing the good that could've come of this. It's still not as bad as any of the other wars we've had as far as deaths go, but any unnecessary death is obviously something we should avoid. Therefore, I don't have a problem with people saying we should get out of Iraq, or of Obama's plan to get the troops out in 16 months(barring the need for some to be left there).

The reasons we went into Iraq always get boiled down into one reason, WMD's. That wasn't the only reason we went in there, and we weren't the only ones who thought(or knew) he had them. It gets almost overlooked because of how long ago it was, but, a bit portion of this happened because of the U.N.'s lack of follow through on sanctions and weapons inspections. They weren't allowed in, and they made multiple threats that they would "take action" if they weren't allowed in. Unfortunately they were just threats, and because of Saddam's past(the gassing of the Kurds, if I remember the group of people correctly) and the horrible treatment of his own people, he was seen as a pretty high threat. The same exact reasons that were said and used when Bill Clinton bombed Iraq during his presidency were used when this war started. Anyways, the amount of time that it took from the information that numerous countries had about "weapons" in Iraq until someone finally got over there was long enough for Natasha to find a way to hide all the weapons in her vagina. It's like warning someone before you sneak up on them("Hey! I'm gonna come up behind you and startle you!"). So that's technically where all of the talks of WMD's started, and that's where France backed out(Kofi Annon, might've spelled his name wrong, is the French U.N. ambassador, or was, and was one who wouldn't take the steps to go into Iraq to do extensive weapons searches).

There was always talk, as in the original gulf war(which all of this should've actually ended there, but we pulled out too soon) of toppling Saddam's regime. It wasn't just their culture(to answer one of Morrison's original questions), it was the inhumane treatment of people as a whole in that country. They do indeed have a different culture, and that's seen in many different aspects of their lives. However, gassing of innocent people and other things that went on there were beyond culture.

Now the idea of fighting for peace has been around for, well, close to forever. I do agree that the war could've been handled differently from the start even. We could've waited and garnered the support of more countries, especially bigger ones. However, if we want to look at war, even if we look in Bible times, King David and King Solomon both had to fight for the peace that they enjoyed. There were long periods of peace in the Bible that came as a result of war. Was war the ultimate way? No, of course not, as those countries and kingdoms were given chances to change their ways. Now, it's a much different world. Wars can be avoided at certain times by diplomacy, treaties, removal of certain people from power, etc. But war can not realistically be avoided forever as a whole. Would I like it to be avoided? Yes. I don't want people to die. I'm not war hungry or a war monger either. Even my oldest brother, who won't be voting for Obama unless something changes by the time elections come around says that he's for pulling out of Iraq. I think we can all agree on that.

I don't think this war was for oil. If it was for oil, and I think this is the simplest explanation for it, we'd have lower gas prices cause we'd be controlling all their oil fields. Do I think that we'll end up with oil and we have ended up with some oil due to this war? Yes, of course. I don't think it was a driving factor. I'd put more weight on revenge being a driving factor than anything. Revenge of the attempt on President Bush's father earlier on. Like Chappelle says in the clip I posted "That nigga tried to kill my father!". I do think that there was mishandling of contracts(i.e. Halliburton and what not) and that there has been financial gain brought about in shady ways to certain associates of this war, but I don't think that's what the war was about.

It's a shame the money we have spent on this war, to the extent that it was spent. But you also have to look at something as far as us helping other countries. If I'm not mistaken(and I might be), Bush has given more money(from this country) to the AIDS problem in Africa than any other president has. Bono played a huge role in that, but I believe that to be a big thing that gets overlooked. Yes, the money that was used for this war could've been spent to help in SO many different ways, and I wish it would have been. But this administration has done some good. This war has done some good(which I'm agreeing with you guys on, as I see that it's been pointed out that it's good that Saddam is gone). It's time for change, indeed it is. But don't buy into everything that's said negatively, just as I can't buy into everything that is said trying to refute all the negative claims.

Ecclesiastes 3
A Time for Everything

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,

3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,

4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,

5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,

7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,

8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

I think we're headed towards a time to mend. A time to heal. A time to build. No matter what someone's views are on the war, we need to figure out a way to fix our own nation. We're torn apart, and it's gonna take a lot of things and people to bring us back together. Let's not forget love in our politics, even towards the ones we disagree with.


There's my few cents. I don't even really disagree with a lot of what was said, and I put up my opinion on the few things that I did disagree with. Just figured I'd share how I felt about it. I remember the first gulf war, and when Clinton bombed Iraq, and when this war started. It's been a part of my life for a long time, and I'm hoping to see it someday where it's just a memory and something to learn from.
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